The Probate Playbook: An Attorney's Guide to Closing Deals Fast with Al Nicoletti

"Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Collective Clicks podcast. This is your host Brandon Baitman, and today I'm joined by Al Nicoletti. We talk all about probate: how long do probates take, what are some common reasons that deals blow up, and how can you avoid those things? How can you sniff out a good potential probate deal from a bad potential probate deal? Just all these things based on his experience. He's done over 700 probate deals in the State of Florida, so I hope you'll find the episode useful and I'll see you there."

"Welcome to the show, Al. Super excited to have you here. How you doing?"

"Good Brandon, I'm happy to be on the podcast with you."

"Man, yeah, I'm super excited for you to be here too. When I think in my mind of like people that bring energy to real estate investing, Al is right there at the top of my list. So really, really excited to have you here. You brighten up my day a little bit."

"For people that don't know you though, like it's every day, there's something going on. It's... I mean, my days, every day is crazy."

"Yeah, I fully believe you. Trust me, you don't have to tell me twice. Yeah, that's and you're kind of in that phase of a business, I think, where everybody feels that way a little bit. So yeah, that's crazy and there's probably a lot to talk about there. But for people that don't know you, haven't heard of you, or seen any of your content or something like that, just if you wouldn't mind, just like a brief summary. Like, who are you? What's your background? What do you do? Anything?"

"So I'm Al Nicoletti. I'm a probate attorney in Florida. I've been doing this for seven years now. I've done over 700 probates in Florida, working with a lot of investors, realtors, title companies. Where my specialty is, is I come in and help solve the problem when you're under contract with a seller or the title company tells you, 'Hey, we got to do probate.' And so there's some kind of probate involved. That's where I come in on the legal side to help overcome the issue, figure out and dissect what's going on, and see what the solution is and bring it to the closing table so that everybody can close. That's where I come in."

"When I first started doing this, Brandon, it wasn't just probate. It was a lot of the foreclosure world. So I got to see a lot of what was going on with the foreclosure defense, and then all of a sudden, probate kind of got dabbled in there. Because with pre-foreclosures, you're going to find distressed properties because somebody owned it, they either can't pay, they won't pay, or they're dead. So I found a lot of that."

"My background really started down in Miami, and I found my way to Jacksonville. Really found this niche, wild story that was with probate. And you know, I realized, Brandon, that there were just tons of opportunities out there where there's just lots of properties. A lot of them are titled where there needs to be a probate involved. And when I saw that model, I saw this niche where there can be somebody that can come in and provide a solution to the seller's problem. And ever since then, just blown it up, spoke everywhere, met with a lot of investors, and it's been a great journey. You know, it's crazy. I've had my own law firm for three plus years now, and we're scaling."

"Very, very cool," Brandon replied. "Yeah, thanks for sharing all that, Al. I mean, I think obviously probate is one of the biggest areas that investors love to focus on. You know, one of the places where you'll find the most distress. And I'm super curious just to like, you know, hopefully pull some wisdom out of your mind."

"I can tell you the number one thing I hear about probate. It happens all the time. Like, we have working with the client that get a deal under contract and they're like, 'Oh, but that's a probate one,' and they're like, they don't count it. They're like, 'Oh, it's just going to... it's going to take forever to get that closed.'"

"Like, I'm curious from your perspective. I mean, you've done 700 of these. Like, walk me through the process with the probate lead. Like, how long in your opinion - well, not necessarily in your opinion, but in your experience - does it take to bring something through the whole cycle?"

Al responded, "Yeah, so this has definitely been one of the things from the very beginning that I really explain to a lot of investors. Because for a long time before me, the investors were like, 'Wait a second, this is going to take six, nine months, 12 months, a year.' You know, and sometimes Brandon, I'm at presentations and they're like, 'Hey, this is going to take two years,' or you know, they think it takes two, three years."

"When I started doing this - so get a little of this - when I did my first probate, this was pre-COVID. I wanted to see like, what was really the potential here. So when I first filed the probate, I got the case number, I went downtown, judge looked at everything, signed, we were done. Literally, it took 4 days to do a probate."

"And when I saw what was going on, then I was like, 'Wait a second, is this like this in every county?' So COVID happens, we're all virtual, everybody's submitting things. I'm doing things all over the state and I'm really learning about what different processes are happening with different counties."

"The real answer is, I would say about 80 to 90% of these probates can be done within a matter of weeks, like four to eight weeks. That's my range that I like because some counties have different rules with checklists, procedures, and different hurdles that we have to overcome, some nuances. Some counties could be a little bit longer because they have different reviews. But the whole thing of 6, 9, 12 months - it doesn't take that long. And I think the procedures can be a lot faster."

"And to all the investors that are listening, I'd say this to you: whenever you get that lead that comes in, if it's inbound or outbound marketing, don't pass that probate off. I mean, there could be options with that. I'm only in Florida, I know you know that Brandon, but you know, a lot of people don't realize that there's options, there's people you can go to, there's experts that you can leverage that can help with that."

Brandon replied, "Now, that's helpful to know. So help me understand this: is it that probate doesn't take six or 9 or 12 months, or is it that it could take that long if you do XYZ, but if you do ABC instead, then it can be four to eight weeks?"

"So the idea of four to eight weeks is everybody's on the same page, everybody's holding hands, signing the contract, agreeing and moving to closing. Right? That's the beautiful part about it. That's where I explain that this thing can get done fast. It's where then you start having uncooperative people or maybe nobody signing documents, and you know, you have to track people down in the process to make them sign things. That's where the process, of course, is going to be longer."

"But when you have everybody together, which I'd say a high percentage is where everybody is just on the same page, that's when it's going to be done fast. We've had a few cases where when you have a missing heir, maybe, or uncooperative people, sure, those are going to take like three, four, five months, maybe longer. But the way to look at it is, in that deal, is it worth your time to wait that long if there is a solution because there's enough money in the deal to make it happen? That's where I tell a lot of people too, is like with these probates, the money's got to be there if this thing starts getting more complicated."

Brandon asked, "Does the legal representation that you have affect pretty strongly how long it takes? Like, could it just be that you work with - because you said like when people work with you, you can get it done pretty fast. Is it basically like, obviously if it takes you - if there's 64 heirs and you only have contact with 20 of them and you got to get the rest, like obviously that's going to take a minute or you just shouldn't do that. But you know, assuming everybody's holding hands and stuff, does the - let's take you out of the equation, you know, for those for people that are listening that aren't in Florida because if you're in Florida, you just hire Al, like it's simple. But let's just say I'm in Utah here. Like, what are some things I want to think through in terms of like who I hire, who I work with to make this happen fast?"

Al replied, "Yeah, so that's a great question. Sometimes we know people in other states. Like lawyers know people in other states, I know a few in other states. I don't know all the states, but one of my best recommendations is: one, get with somebody that is also doing high volume deals in that state. Why high volume? Because the chances of them finding a messy deal are higher than somebody doing just a one-off or one deal a month. The high volume investors are the ones that are really dialed in on making sure that they're having a specialty, a special attorney for that work."

"Another thing is local REAs, local meetups. There's always somebody that is having a problem with the deal, and when you go there, maybe they have an open mic night, maybe they have like a Q&A or like a networking event that you can really ask and find out."

"Also, you know, not every lawyer is the same. So what you really want to hone in on for finding that right person if you're getting into a messy deal, that right lawyer is, find out like what percentage of their practice really is probate or messy deals. Because there's a lot of lawyers that say, 'I do this, I do this, I do divorce, I do criminal law, I do mergers and acquisitions.' It's like, how do you do all that? I can't even do all that in one day."

"And it's because they're just throwing everything on the menu to see what sticks. You want to find somebody that's a specialist at what they do and find out what kind of volume are they taking on. You know, Brandon, ask me like what percentage of probate is my practice - it's got to be 95% to 100% basically. I mean, with the files that we have rotating all the time, and we're always in real estate deals. That's what you want to look for."

"Another one is just making sure that they get on the creative side. You know, another thing with probate lawyers, and now that we're on the topic of like, basically what do you want to look for in a probate lawyer, you know, what you want to look for too is that they're not just thinking about probate but also how does the deal get closed. You know, I've seen a number of deals, Brandon, where it's a complicated one where they think that they can just get one person to sign on behalf of others, and not every state's the same, not every rule's the same."

"And so you know, you hear it from one person, you hear 'Yeah, you can do it,' 'You can't do it.' You got to really make sure you're with somebody that sees the end, how do you close the deal. So the lawyer that can see the probate, get the probate done, but how do you close the transaction? That's the key. That's what I look at every time I look at a file. If you call me and you said, 'Al, I got this wild deal, you know, what do you think?' I'm not looking at it just probate. I'm like, how does Brandon actually get this closed?"

Brandon responded, "Okay, that's super fascinating. Thank you for sharing some of that. I mean, honestly, I've heard from a few people that they're a little bit scared of probate. Like there's just a lot there, and I have every end of the spectrum. One, I got a friend of mine that is proud of closing his probate deal where there were like 39 heirs or something, and he somehow got it done. I'm like, that - and he said it was absolutely not worth it, but it's a cool trophy deal, whatever you want to call it, right?"

"So I mean, there's that, and there's people that like will actually pass these kinds of leads and these kinds of deals up, or maybe they just don't see something. They don't see the opportunity because they don't understand the process. Like, help me understand, let's just say you're talking to an investor and they've got hundreds or thousands of leads in their system and some of those could be probate. Like, what are the common reasons that they might just be passing them up where maybe they shouldn't be?"

Al replied, "So maybe there's not enough money in the deal, maybe there's a lot of other issues with the property. Maybe, you know, I'm thinking first thinking land, right? So what could be the problems? It's landlocked, there's no rights of access, there's environmental issues. You know, forget the probate aside, there's all these other problems that they hear about. So they could be passing it off just because of that."

"Sometimes, sometimes the money's just not in the deal. You know, they may be able to lock it up for five and they're going to sign it out for 20, but then we do the probate analysis and there's going to be four probates. Well, the four probates are going to eat straight into the assignment fee, and then the deal doesn't make sense. Right? So sometimes it's about - sometimes it's not about the probate, but it's the margins, the money, and all these other auxiliary things going on."

"Another reason some people kind of get a little turned off by it is, we find out well, you think that there's three heirs, and then we have the consultation, and then we find out well, there was a fourth one that died before and they have seven kids. And it's like, wait a second, like so do we have to track down the seven kids? And it's like, yeah, you got to go find them. And some people don't want to get into it, right? Like this is the messy stuff."

"And there's a lot of investors that like, get excited, they get energy from like, 'Wait, we got to go find people?' I do this for a living. Like, I work with those kind of people, right? Like they find people for a living. So there's a lot of these little things."

"I always think it comes down to money. I think it comes down to, you know, getting around it. Sometimes the title companies have weird requirements, right? Or maybe the people are just crazy. Sometimes there's like, you know, crazy sellers and so they don't want to deal with them. Like, I don't mind crazy deals, I don't want crazy sellers. Right? So that's something that a lot of people want to avoid."

"But going to your point, Brandon, this niche can be one of the most profitable in real estate, I think. Because I've just seen so many investors recently where it's not 64 heirs, it's not 32 heirs, it's one heir, it's four heirs, and their assignment fees are like $800,000. Like, there's a big range of spread, and so finding two people or one, three people, like it makes a lot of sense because it's going to be their biggest deal and it changes their entire platform. It changes, you know, who they hire, who they get for acquisitions, can they get another TC, can they take on more. So it's a game-changer."

Brandon asked, "So you would say like in a typical situation, basically they'd be responsible for tracking people down, and then the attorney they're working with is just doing all the paperwork and all that kind of stuff to get it done, right? So that's kind of like part of like, who usually does that in a company? Is that like acquisitions that's responsible for tracking people down? Or like, just help me understand, like when someone's thinking, 'How do I do more probates?' and they're thinking like, 'How does this fit into the org chart and who does what?' What's normal?"

Al responded, "From my understanding, it's usually acquisitions, right? Or they'll have somebody underneath them, or you know, maybe go look for them or they'll hire someone. TCs are not usually doing that, they're just trying to like, you know, herd everybody together to sign things and do things. But acquisitions is just trying to find and locate people or, you know, maybe try to get more information from the seller."

"So you know, that's the one thing I've learned too that I think a lot of people can get valuable information is the acquisitions if they can ask the right questions to that seller, that you find out wait, there's more people. They know the family, they know where people are. I would say most of the time they know, and sometimes you have to ask like three times for them to be like, 'Oh yeah, there's a kid in New York.' It's like, well, where was that like, you know, six months ago?"

"Like, we just had a case where at first it was one guy, and then the story kind of changed, and all of a sudden like there's more people, and then all of a sudden there's more. So they all know, and sometimes, you know, another golden nugget for people is, you know, death certificates. If they're able to get - if they're able to get this to help like find more people, you know, or find the next lead, sometimes death certificates, if you're able to acquire them, will list an informant on it. And the informant usually has an address, a name, which is basically like another - it's a lead to a lead, right? It's another little clue so you can find out what's going on."

Brandon replied, "Totally makes sense. So let's just say, let's just say the financials of a deal sound right. Beyond that, if we know it's a probate situation, like for people a little bit new to probate, like what are the key questions they should be asking the seller to better understand is this an opportunity or is it not? Or maybe like along those lines, like red flags where you're like, you hear this, like just give up now, it's not going to work."

Al answered, "Well, definitely the crazy factor, right? Like that, that's got to - I mean, that I didn't even used to say that before. Now for me, it's like, it's definitely the crazy factor. They're out, right? So that's one. Two is, who are - who is that person that acquisitions is talking to in relation to maybe the title owner, right? So you want to find out like, who is this person in relation to them? Like, are they the cousin or are they like the child? And you have to know that because that person - very different people are going to have an authority to sign documents, move forward with a probate."

"And so you first have to ask it - if you're really talking to somebody far down the line like nephew and cousin or uncle, that's where you kind of have to put your red flag up about wait, there's got to be a little bit more to the story. It sounds too good to be true."

"I'd say that that's a big one. Of course, just listening out for what they're saying. You know, one thing I've learned is they'll tell you guys they're the only one, and then I find out that there's seven, right? So it's being able to ask the questions in a way that's going to pull out as much as you can. Right? You're only going to get so much."

"So finding out how many, how many children ever, right? It's crazy that we have to say it like that, but for some reason, like when you say it the second time, it like registers and they're like, 'Oh, ever,' and it's like, 'Yeah, like, like how many kids ever?' And then they tell you, right? So being able to ask these right questions."

"I have a checklist too, which could be a freebie for everybody out there, Brandon, which is, you know, some of the right questions to ask is, you know, where's the death certificate? Do you have the documentation that if we were able to move forward and I - you can put somebody in touch with an attorney, that we can do this, right? Do you have the death certificate? Do you have the will? Do you have the important heir info? That's really key as well."

"A lot of people don't realize like those are vital documents to being able to do a probate that lays the record for being able to say, 'Hey, somebody owned that property, they died, now we have to do this estate administration.' And I mean, there's so much to this. Like I see every day, a lot of times the sellers will also be really pushy to get the transaction going, and it's like, well why? Like, what, what, what's going on that we don't know? And I hear about this once in a while, and of course then we find out there's more kids, which is why they wanted to push it to the closing line because there's, you know, there's more people."

"So you know, just being able to ask these right questions up front and at least having a little guide for yourself that can help prepare you when you go to an appointment so you can find out what's happening."

Brandon responded, "Yeah, no, that's super, super good advice. And kind of along those lines, I mean, you sort of touched on this a little bit, but I just want to make sure I'm sucking everything out of your brain that can be found. Is there a - like, are there any other things you're noticing that are like reasons that deals are blowing up, just never getting closed, but are in your opinion avoidable if you did things the right way?"

Al replied, "Man, that's a really good question because - so I can think in my mind right now of a few deals that we've been scrambling on lately that have blown up not because of the probate, but one, you know what happens with foreclosures, there's a payoff, right? And then you think that the payoff is 220, and so your contract price is 260, right? And then all of a sudden you're ready to close, and then the bank shows the payoff and the payoff is 320. And it's like, well, you know, now what? You know, even if we increase the purchase price, dead deal. Like, doesn't matter. Like that's, that's it, right?"

"So we've seen some actually get messed up because the bank just refused and didn't provide the payoff, and now everybody's in a scramble. We've seen some that when you get probates, sometimes these properties are heading for a foreclosure auction, and that's like another niche I kind of get into as well. As like, if they're heading to an auction in two weeks or one week, you know, can we try to cancel and reschedule the sale? And I'd say about 85% of those have been successful. Sometimes the judge just says no, and we had one recently where the judge was like, 'Nope, we're not, we're not doing it.' Like, and we're - it's going to go to sale, and there's only so much you can do, right? You only have so much control, and you just do the best you can. So we've seen, we've seen some deals like that."

"Crazy sellers, sometimes everybody's under contract and they're just getting mailed, mailed, mailed, and somebody's just saying, 'Hey, I'm going to offer you a million dollars for your property.' And it's like, then they ghost, they ghost everybody, you know? So we've seen - I say more recently I've seen some of the probates go crazy not on the probate side, but like the after part, like when they're about to go to the closing table, when everybody's getting all their numbers crunched. That's when there's something happening."

"And we saw one recently too where the acquisitions was on great rapport with the seller, and there's multiple sellers. I mean, they took hours, Brandon, hours just building the trust, building the relationship, probate done, out - just ghost, ghost. And we never know, we never know why sometimes."

Brandon asked, "Fair point. And there's no - like, help me understand, 'cause again, prob- just not something I know a ton about, but like, let's just say you're under contract with a seller and just normal wholesale deal. And the seller ghosts you, like, I know there's ways to deal with that. Like you file a memorandum or whatever the case is, so you can, you know, eventually get paid or, you know, prevent them from selling to another investor, whatever the case is. Can you do that with probate still? Like in the circumstance where like the seller just ghosts you? Or can you not do that in a probate situation?"

Al responded, "It - I was just having this talk with my assistant today. It's, it's a tough spot to be in, right? It's kind of the risk that you get into when you play the game. The hope is that everybody's gonna close, right? But then sometimes you get into ones where they do that. Sometimes there's a way, there really is a way. It's - there's probably a lot more work on my end that I have to get into to kind of enforce that, you know, go through maybe some kind of lawsuit or something like that to get a judgment. But it, it's really part of the risk, and the hope is that everybody, you know, will get to the closing table."

"At some point, there's an invoice and the title companies will add your invoice to the line item on the HUD, right? So it's, it's definitely - it's a lot harder than people realize. And yeah, I mean, of course we hear all the investors have the different strategies to making sure they're, they're in place in case that doesn't happen. Just in our world, it's a little different."

Brandon replied, "Okay, yeah, it's good to know that it is a little different. So I'm assuming then that your clients really appreciate that you just get paid at closing basically on this pro- I- that takes from their - from their plate that takes a lot of the risk off because then they're not thinking I'm, I'm like getting - I'm getting deep in debt here with Al just to get this deal closed. And then the seller ghosts me and then now I've got all these legal fees and I don't even have a deal."

Al confirmed, "Oh, that's one of the biggest selling points. It's probably the biggest selling point for my services, right? Because if investors know that wait a second, if I get a Florida probate and the title company says, 'Hey, we got to do probate,' or there's some kind of probate word that they hear, they're knowing, wait a second, I can get with Al, he'll wait until closing to get paid. Nobody's having to pay anything up front. And by the way, the seller is going to be all in because they don't want to come out of pocket because how many attorneys they've been to where they're being told, 'Hey, you need to pay us, you know, five grand up front.' And so they don't want to do that, right? But they want to - they're like, 'Hey, we'll wait until closing, no problem.' I can name so many people that are like, loving that strategy because it helps them do deals. I mean, some of the highest volume investors that you know, Brandon, love the strategy because they can just go deal after deal after deal and close and just get, get it done."

Brandon concluded, "Yeah, yeah, totally understood. Well, thank you for all the wisdom that you shared today, Al. It's super interesting. For people that want to get a hold of you for whatever reason - I mean, I imagine if you're in Florida, definitely hit up Al for any appropriate deals you might have. If they're in other states, I don't know if you want me to just tell them not to ever talk to you, Al, or if you still welcome the reach out, but yeah, they got to get a hold of you. How do they do that?"

Al replied, "Yeah, I, I'll say this, Brandon. If anybody is looking for somebody in Georgia, I know Georgia. There's - there's a couple states I know of. Illinois, knew somebody there. California, I think there's someone over there. There's a few states I know. So if somebody needs something like in a certain state, I don't mind at all. I'd say this: the best way to get a hold of me, if you're finding deals - because by the way, a lot of people are doing probates now in Florida, a lot of people are coming to the Florida market just because it's been so hot - find me on all the social platforms: Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, under Al Nicoletti. My website, www.alnicoletti.com, and you can - if you need a call, 904-999-4953. And of course, I have my own podcast, the Al Nicoletti Show, which we had Brandon on. If you missed that episode going all into inbound marketing, you got to watch that episode. And we go live on the show 9:00 Eastern on Wednesdays, and a lot of people love watching that just because of the value on that too, just getting more info and they see me and they see you and it's just great. So that's where you can find me. I'm, I'm all over."

Brandon concluded, "Okay, very cool. Thank you, Al. Appreciate it. And to everybody else listening, I'll see you next week."

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